Embracing Being a Leader with Gina Lisenby & Catherine Porth

Welcome to Season 2 of the She Speaks Podcast!

Throughout Season 2 we will be featuring the graduates and mentors/coaches in our first cohort of the Let Her Lead program. Each woman you will hear from throughout this season embarked on a 12-week journey in late 2023 to gain new skills and insights to become the leader SHE wants to be.

The outcomes and stories of each of these women are truly incredible to hear. We can't wait for you to hear each interview.

In our first episode of the season, our founder, Catherine Porth, and Let Her Lead co-facilitator, Gina Lisenby, have a conversation about the things they learned while facilitating this first-of-its-kind program, some of the topics coming up for the rest of Season 2, and the complexities of women showing up as leaders in their communities, whether they see themselves as leaders or not.
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Have any questions, comments, or want to connect more with the Let Her Speak community? Contact us at hello@letherspeakusa.org

You're listening to She Speaks, a Let Her Speak podcast that celebrates women's fearlessness, resiliency, and readiness to change the world. Welcome friends to Season 2 of the She Speaks podcast.

This is Catherine Porth. I'm the founder of Let Her Speak and if you've never listened to an episode of our podcast, number one, you definitely should go back and listen to all of season one where we went through a lot of different women's stories of how far they had come since the beginning of the pandemic and then catching up with them several years later.

There's some incredible stories there. there of a lot of changes, some heartbreaks, some transformations, and everything in between where we just celebrated how far we had come since 2020.

So definitely tune back into those. And for season two, we decided to take things a little bit different. So throughout the end of 2023,

we launched a program called Let Her Lead, which was a 12 -year program. program where we walked aspiring leaders and established women leaders through a set of sessions,

workshops, activities, and matched them with mentors and coaches to help them realize and embrace the leaders that they already are, build their skill sets in leadership,

and to dive into some really tough questions that we don't always give ourselves the room to think about. And through that journey of developing the program, I had the honor of working with Gina Lysenby,

who not only helped us form, but also facilitated the established leader track for our programming, walking women through the different aspects of empathy,

communication as a leader, especially when you're transitioning from... being a part of the group to now having to be the leader of a group of people and then also diving into the difficult conversations around bias.

And so for our first episode of this season, I thought the perfect thing to do would be for Gina and I to have a conversation around a lot of the things that we learned while facilitating this program and a lot of common topics that we're going to talk about.

came up and how we can help other women who are also struggling with these topics to work through them. So Gina, thank you for being here with me and being with me throughout this entire process.

Literally figuratively being together through this. Yes, I don't know if you knew what you were signing yourself up for. It was more than I could have hoped for that's that's for sure.

Yeah, it was the real honor to be on the journey with you. - Well, thank you, thank you. I know I asked you for, I probably made the ask sound very simple, more simple than it actually ended up being.

- But don't you think that most things that are worth it are a lot more complicated than we first realized? - Absolutely, absolutely. Especially as the evolve,

then we start uncovering it. the complexities of needing to just go a little bit further and a little bit deeper. - Yeah, and that's where all the rich stuff is anyway, so it's been an amazing journey, so I'm really grateful to have been on it with you and to know that you're out there doing the work that you're doing is so important,

it's so necessary, so being a part of that is important to me. - Thank you. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So, first, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more. bit about your background because I think it helps to add to the richness of what you have been able to help a lot of these women with and also the context of a lot of what we're gonna be talking about today.

- Yes, I will for sure. I'm gonna go way back, five years old. (laughing) I won't chart all the years, but I think as I've gotten older and reflected back on where I am in my life now,

I think it helps to add to the richness of what - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you. that's sort of purpose -driven work that I do and I definitely do purpose -driven work. One thing that always stands out to me was just simply the way that I was raised and it was very much that everyone has their own unique set of skills and gifts and talents and their responsibility is to use those skills to the best

that they can out in the world wherever wherever that might be. And I realized through my career, which was always people -centric, human -being -centric,

that two things happened for me. One was I was really committed to my own development, personally and professionally, and really wanting to honor that. How am I supposed to show up and be in service in the world?

And it also made me really pay attention to people differently. as well, that I truly do believe. And in seeing time and time again how every individual matters and the unique way that they look at the world and their talents and their abilities and how that diversity,

although I probably wouldn't have used that word way back then, that sense of that just diverse representation makes a difference. And as I went through my career,

it was always around people and leadership. I found myself towards the end of my more corporate career before I started Revelation Road,

that I was really centering around engagement and leadership, and particularly with women. And so, for me,

the work with Let Her Lead was really a how we help women to find a sense of purpose and authenticity, which I hope is a word we talk about today.

Cause I think there's lots of different definitions and there's one that I think is really important to the work we did, particularly through Let Her Lead, but it's how to find a sense of purpose and accomplishment,

um, while contributing to the growth and development of other people. people. And I really experienced that time and time again in our work with Let Her Lead,

whether it was aspiring leaders who were just trying to figure out their own way and how they want to show up in the world. And we had a lot of interesting dynamics in the women that were in the established cohort as well,

be it they are shifting from being very accomplished individual contributors if you will. to now being people leaders, taking over, you know, promotion, taking over roles in their organization,

to still be able to figure out, like, how do I have my own voice and stand really solid and really make an impact while I'm trying to figure out how to do that for other people? And to me,

that's just the best of both worlds because it's helping the leader become more value and purpose driven. and really clear on who she is. And also helping her with the skills and the practices and all the things that we learned through the program,

how to help do that for others and ensure that other people can stand and their voices used and they are seen wherever it is that they're going to work.

That's my long winded answer. That's my very passionate answer. to answer too. How I ended up where I am with you. - I think what is so different is we,

probably 20 years ago, if you and I were doing what we were doing, this conversation would be completely different as it relates to what leadership needs to look like, what a modern day leader should be and should be doing.

and how they show up and the type of cultures that they're building. I mean, it's just the conversation has shifted dramatically in the last 20 years that to bring up the topics of like authenticity,

for example, and having one of your superpowers that you talked about being that you see people and you see them and you see the opportunity and you don't force them into a box that we would,

as a society, define as this is what a leader is in the most robotic way possible, but instead embracing the aspects of themselves that our leadership that might not have been widely celebrated 20 years ago.

And I know that's something that you and I, it's been very intentional and when we talk about leadership that... there's many many different variations and definitions of what makes a leader.

Yeah absolutely and I love that part of the work that you've done and it you know it so resonates with me as well that in trying to redefine or look at what leadership really is now it can be a lot of different things and it does require a level of authenticity in being leading with our humanity,

being human -centric, then maybe we would have never, yeah, you're right, never had this conversation 20 years ago. What I believe to be true is all of the things that we talk about now that are needed in leadership were always there.

People just learned to suffer through it, or they didn't have the sense of fulfillment or connection, not everybody anyway, to the type of work that they were doing or the contribution they were making. And a lot of pain,

a lot of things came out of COVID, for sure. One of the things that I really believed helped fuel the work that you do and the work that I find very important in leadership coaching and in training is really centering on those human -centric aspects of of leading that it's collective leadership.

now. It's not centered on one person. It's not about calling the shots and do as I say. It is leading with our humanity first, our employees,

our human beings before their employees. We're human beings before we're leaders. And I think it's the things we've been avoiding up until the kinds of conversations that you and I have been having and the work you've done with Let Her Speak.

I think the very things we've been avoiding is actually what makes it... it so hard or leadership, you know, be perceived as such a, it isn't that it isn't hard to lead but that we just seem to keep missing the point on what really creates good leadership and a way that leaders can feel a sense of purpose and meaning and that we're creating that kind of experience for other people.

people. - I mean, it's not a list of, if you check all of these boxes, you will therefore be a effective leader. - Yes, and it's much less transactional.

And it's much more, and we should say this out loud just in case people think, just in case it's assumed, we're talking about being results oriented, achieving,

realizing your potential, ensuring that you can realize that for your organization. organization or others that you work for, type of leadership, they go hand in hand. And you can be relational,

which is necessary now in leadership, and have very high performing teams. I think it's hard to not have both those things and be successful. And I think it's so hard,

though, for those that grew up in that more authoritative, non -relational types of environment. to believe that you can achieve likely more when you are not in that state of authority and more in that state of relational and collective mindset of collaboration and authenticity and yet being a human being.

Who knew that actually the being human part would be better? I think you're right. right, absolutely. And that it's actually more enjoyable, the messiness of being a human.

And I mean, we both work, you know, my work is often of this very and also sort of place. You can have empathy and also expect high performance.

Or you can, you know, that's the kind of world we're in. And I think that's where leadership is now as well. And, And it's more enjoyable. There is better performance.

There is a better connection through this more humanistic approach. And that means people want to be at their best. I had this conversation recently with someone in the old,

a boss of mine used to say this, that like people don't wake up and just decide they want to suck. They just don't. They don't get up and just. say like, I just want to be rotten in what I'm doing.

They need an environment and they need a leader that makes them want to be their best and creates that sort of environment. And I think it's possible to do that.

And I think there's more ease in the approach that we often think is, you know, oh no, you know, I'm a human being. I don't want anyone to know that.

It's exhausting. It is. is absolutely exhausting to show up as something, someone that you think everybody wants you to be. And then you have to constantly remember the things that you should and should not say in order to adhere to that archetype that you're trying to fit within.

Oh, that's just, I don't know how, how to do that on a daily basis. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's where a lot of, some forms of burnout absolutely come from. Yeah. from.

And I think too, that's, I find often with, with leaders that I coach with, you know this through all the work with entrepreneurs.

There is some sort of catalyst and it's usually something that doesn't feel so great that brings us to the, this isn't working and I need, you know, I need to redesign this for myself.

And it is typically some version of it's exhausting. exhausting. Or I don't-- I had someone I coach with in about two months into a pregnancy, and she-- high achiever,

very busy corporate life. Like, you know the whole story. And she came into a coaching session, and she said, I have to like talk-- I have to say this out loud, and I was like, OK. She's like,

I can't do this any longer. I am so exhausted. And I just realized that I've done a really good job of like-- like me being businesswoman me and now I've got this new part of my life happening and I realize that I don't even know where to begin with who,

how do I actually want to go about doing this because what I'm doing is not working. And then that was of course part of the coaching for her coaching topic was what, how do you want to do this now?

And sometimes we just need to have someone in our lives or realize that we have permission to redesign whenever we need to.

- I think that that's the hardest part is that we feel like we don't have that permission. - I know, what do you want to share with everybody about the permission? That it comes from you.

- It's a light in the world here. - You have the power to give yourself permission to do whatever the heck you want to, but at any given point, I mean, there's societal structures and there's systemic issues of making it feel like you have no choice in a lot of different elements of your life.

And nobody is going to tell you, you have a choice in this except you a lot of times, unless you have an incredible circle of friends or family that are around you.

you that are reinforcing that, which is, would be amazing if everybody had that around them. But not everyone does, yes, yes. But the fact that you,

and this is something I know you and I were talking about earlier off, off mic, but the barriers that we put up, especially women put up for themselves on their own.

own, that still to this day is something that breaks my heart every single time. And it's a conversation that happens time and time again. There were conversations throughout the program that were constantly around helping women understand that you just put up that barrier for yourself.

No one else put that up there for you. Now, you feel like there's outside external barriers. that perpetuated you to put that barrier up.

And one of them is telling yourself no, especially for something that you wanted, like asking for a promotion, moving on from a role that you thought that you wanted.

And then it's tearing you down inside and you feel like you're a shell of your former self. And you are telling yourself. that I put too much time and effort into this,

I can't leave now. - Oh my gosh, yes. - Which breaks my heart every time. - Yes, yes, yes. - I hear that. - Yeah. - But then there's the other barriers of like, I can't do this or I don't have the skill sets or there's somebody else that's better prepared or better equipped than me to do these things.

It's all of these stories that we tell ourselves over and over and over again where we keep saying, no to ourselves before anybody else has ever had an opportunity to even,

before we've even gotten any sort of yes or no from anybody else, we stop ourselves from the things that we want. And so that goes hand in hand with giving yourself permission to be adventurous or to accept failure,

that a failure could happen and that's okay. because failure is necessary for a lot of growth in life and failure is not really that bad when the fear of the failure and what your brain tells you the failure is going to feel like is far worse than what the failure actually ends up feeling like when you go through it.

Yeah. And something you said earlier, it would be some, we need to continue to be really intentional about who we set around. us in our support system because we need more conversations about failure and the messiness of being a human being and it doesn't all go great.

We need to continue to have that for the reason you described. Most of us have a really long -term, well -defined relationship with the inner critic,

you know, the... the saboteur or whatever, the gremlins in our minds, someone I know calls them gremlins, of what we can't do and certainly for our brain's job is to keep us safe.

So when we start getting uncomfortable, they're like, "Don't get uncomfortable, you're right, "you shouldn't go for that promotion, you shouldn't try." So we've already developed that from very young age, typically.

And then, I think, it's also being very mindful of what's going to happen from external pressure that our sense of agency, certainly as women gets challenged by,

and also I want to be a good girl. And what will people think? And who do I need to please? And I want to make sure that everyone is okay with every decision I make. None of those things are reasonable,

practical, and really work out that way. But every decision I make, and I want to make sure that everyone is okay with every decision I sure that everyone is okay with every decision I make, and I want to make sure that know for myself, I don't know if you've had this experience or been times in my life that I've certainly tried to fit all the things in all of those boxes.

And so I think it's when the work inside Let Her Lead and some of the things that we saw come up and there's, I think there's a sort of unifying effect of talking as much about the failures and the messiness.

messiness as there is in all of our accomplishments and successes. And it's been interesting. I think one of the things you and I talked about a lot was how infrequently women would refer to themselves as leaders or experienced leaders.

- Or just accept when we call them a leader. - When we call them a leader. Yeah, yeah, oh, that's good. But yeah, just even accept it. that we call them leaders. So there's this,

maybe it's always being mindful when we're doing the kind of work that we're doing and we're holding the kind of conversations we are and inviting community in that that is a conscious part of the conversation.

It is so easy to be putting, you know, the barriers up for ourselves. And I think that intentionality is important. Like the mindset. mindset work is really as important.

How do I flip that I can't do it or I don't have enough of the credentials or someone can probably do it better into, can I just at least give it a try,

or could I just do it, you know, my way, and I think continuing that conversation is really important because we're rewriting, really rewriting a default.

default approach to life and when we're looking at being fearless and more brave and courageous, it requires managing that because we're always going to run into things externally.

There's always going to be someone like, "Oh, I don't know if you should do that." So we've got to get our own minds right. But what I've noticed, especially with the amazing group of women that we were,

worked with, that collective support is so important, so important. I do not discount the fact that for women,

there is bias, there are systemic issues, there are going to be worse trolls when we step out and do something that goes outside what our norms are.

are that, of the roles that are acceptable and the things that are acceptable for us to say or the way we present ourselves that's acceptable by society standards that the odds are stacked against us that there are going to be people no matter what that are going to tear us down,

which is why we need those circles. But, when you look at the women that I think so many of us hold in high regard as heroes that came before us and those that did not allow that mold to stop them.

I mean, that was a big part of why we love them so much is because they didn't fit the mold. You know, one person comes to mind is like Eleanor Roosevelt. She did not fit a lot of different molds that were applied to her back in the day.

But I mean, you look at like Bessie Coleman, who was the first woman. black woman who was a pilot. And the things that were stacked up against her to not only be not the right color,

quote unquote, for that time period, not the right gender for that time period, and in a highly masculine role that those are the women that we look up to.

[BLANK _AUDIO] so why would we want to frame ourselves as something different if those are the women that we're looking up to and we want to be more like?

Yeah, so I just thought of something, and it's been some work you did a while ago, but it's why the conversation of what is it, it's why the conversation about who we admire,

who inspires us, who resonates with us is so important. Because what I hear you saying when you say that is, we're using women that have come before us and maybe not done it better,

but they were faster and they had the grit and the face of such extreme adversity still did their thing. They've lived. they really lived their calling and their sense of purpose.

It's so important to connect people to, those are beacons. That is a lighthouse. That's supposed to be a reminder that you too can do it. Rather than I'm just in awe of this person that I think that's done it so much better than I have,

but that we really use the those stories and the ones like you just told to remind us that we too can do it. And I think that that type of storytelling,

which we know you love, of course, let her speak, is important not just for us to be thinking about why we find Michelle Obama so awe -inspiring, but what is it about the qualities and the value she has that we can connect to.

Because is that kind of awareness and intentionality that can help us and help women move forward? - Yeah. - Those stories are important. - Yeah, and I would imagine too,

to any one of these women that, whether they're internationally known, nationally known, or maybe they're a woman within your family, if you were to ever go up to that woman,

and for one thing, tell her how much she's meant to you. you and then say the words, but there's no way I could even do what you did. I guarantee every single one of those women would say,

"Yes, you can." - Yes, you can. And there's something to, it's interesting, even just that you just said that I got the chills because there is something to, part of the way that we can honor the women in our lives who were proud of us.

of or who we aspire to or we hope that we could do that. We wish that we could. Okay, even if you say, I could never do that. Part of honoring their story and their experience is by trying.

And I think when we, yes, you can do it as long as you put the hours in and you put your heart and soul into it and you've got a little bit of grit and you know that you're gonna fail and you're willing to do all the things.

when I say all the things, I mean, have the mindset and the commitment that the women we admire so much had that, yes, you can. It's just going to be your way.

It's just going to look like how it should for how you're going to do it versus that woman. But I think part of honoring it is rather than the, but I could never do it, which of course,

yeah, that is the story that. that version. I think a better version is, and I'm figuring out how I might be able to do that for myself. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can't imagine any woman not living or dead,

not loving, hearing the stories of a woman that heard her story and then applied what she could from the inspiration into her own world.

I mean, I know personally if a woman came up and told me that, I mean, that would be. be the most amazing thing I could ever hear from another woman is the fact that she took inspiration from what I did and then went out and did it in her own way.

- Yeah, oh my gosh, absolutely, that gave me chills again. - And you know, if you, we think of the women who have achieved or we aspire, you know, we admire, they're, they have a,

a legacy and a lineage themselves about who at very rarely, do you hear anyone that we might admire say that there wasn't somebody that inspired them,

or if it wasn't for this woman opening the door or letting me stand on her shoulders, I would never have been able to do that. They're also women that we admire who have defined success for themselves,

so I say define for themselves, because success can look like a lot of different things. things. They had those beacons of light as well. They had women that they wanted to do it for,

or do it like as well. For sure, yeah. And I think that nobody is you and that your superpower is a really important way for entrepreneurship,

for leadership, for women who want their voice to be heard and really want to stand. stand squarely in their own light. I think that's helpful because the comparison,

I can't do all of those things that can get mixed together and really help get us off our path. We just need to remember we're all doing it. We're going to do it in our own way,

but we can absolutely move forward. I agree. So, I know there were some other topics. that came up to you in the facilitations that we did.

So what was another one that came up often in your sessions? One that came up,

it's probably, if I would mind mapping, it kind of spurs off. But I think that's one of the things that came up in your sessions. Thank you. our newly defining purpose and my contribution as a leader,

when my role is now leading others, and that I think if the work around what authenticity is,

and like you said, we said earlier, if we were holding this conversation 20 years ago, we'd be like laughed off a stage. stage for talking about being yourself or, you know, being authentic.

I think if you haven't done that enough of that work at the point when you begin to lead others, it can make it a little, it can make it more challenging. And there's just this gray space of,

well, my success always came from my accomplishment, my contribution came by my own hands. And so what's my purpose? What does it mean when I'm now leading through others?

And that's a common pattern for sure, because the things that typically get leaders to the place where they're promoted into leadership, the skills, the qualities, the talents they have,

it's not like those go away, but you have to bring forward a different set of skills and way of being and practices and behaviors. behaviors to be successful at leading others.

And the one area I think that always gets so hard is the authenticity. And I hope, I know because I see it all the time through work with Let Her Speak and what happened in our work with Let Her Lead was helping those leaders find themselves.

What did one of our cohort members say? Do you remember? - Yeah, Amy. - Amy said. - Yeah, she talked about that. One of the biggest takeaways was that it wasn't necessarily building new skills,

but it was finding within herself that she already was a leader. - Yes. - Head to toe. (laughing) - Shills, goosebumps. Yeah, and part of that is what does it mean for me to bring my sense of humanity forward into the leadership space because that empathy,

the ability to build trust through the quality of my conversations that truly, even if we took this from an organizational level and said you have, people have to feel very safe to be really innovative because they won't take risks.

If there's a chance someone's going to criticize criticize them or get shot down. So just the very thought of what typically makes forward thinking organizations tick requires a lot of these human -centric skills.

And so one of things I think was really great unfolding a Let Her Lead was, "Oh, you can do those things and run successful businesses." But I think she Amy absolutely nailed it and it is.

is figuring out how to bring myself forward more. And analogy we use a lot when helping leaders is you almost have to think of becoming a leader of people like being a conductor in a symphony,

that a conductor is not running around playing all the instruments. And that typically is what happens in that early learning curve of leading people. It's like, I'm still supposed to be doing all the things.

And she's not. That conductor is helping to bring out the best in each person so that they can play their instrument well. It's just-- it's like a slight nuance,

but it's really an important one. So the more authentic, which means confident I can feel in myself, and then,

as-- the skills on of how you help develop people. And the more successful I can be in the learning curve is less painful. But people are not alone,

women are not alone, leaders are not alone, 'cause I think that is absolutely one of the things that came through. - Yeah, yeah, and I think the humanity is part of, oftentimes we get this image in our heads and it's that,

a leader is synonymous with perfection, which-- Like it's one of the criteria. It's one of the criteria, right? To check a box out. You are without fault.

You always, you say the right thing, you do the right thing, you have the right credentials, you never make a mistake, you have all the answers. It's just no human being is like that.

But so often, we-- start associating a effective leader with the idea of perfection. And,

and often, and there's definitely leaders out there that perpetuate that, that they don't, they want to come across as perfect and they are without fault or failure. And, but the, if you really think about,

you know, and I'm assuming everybody has had at one point some, leader, whether that was maybe a teacher or it was a parent of a friend or it was a friend of theirs or a boss or somebody that really left a impact on them.

More than likely that person showed up as a human being with faults and all, made mistakes, you know, maybe, maybe said the wrong thing or did the wrong thing or forgot something.

something, but they fully embraced that they were not perfect and they gave you through that permission to also not be perfect. - Yeah.

- Which I think that's something that a lot of us, any of us that are what I call the type A and the talented and gifted group. (both laughing) Any of us that came through that.

which I am definitely was one of those, that this perfectionism became how I defined myself. I cannot screw up because I am seen as a part of this hierarchy of you get all the right grades,

you do everything perfect, and it just gets to be exhausting because you know you're not perfect, you can... look in the mirror and see all the faults and yet you can't speak those out loud.

- Yeah, when you were going through the list of what it means to show up as that perfect person, I was like, I was suffocating. I mean, it's just, it is exhausting and two things contribute to that.

One, we talked about already, which is there was a time. when a leadership model was really around, you have all the answers, you are always right,

and you are never going to show your hand. So when you screw up, it was the opposite, which was do everything you can to not admit a mistake. Even that means putting it on somebody else.

Yep, and we know who that is as our employees. So that would be part of it. And also, I also call this well -intentioned exclusion that also we exclude the contribution of others for reasons because we have been given the perception or the expectation that no,

we are, rather than I know it all and it's gonna be my way, it comes through as, oh my gosh, I'm supposed to know it all and I don't. I'm supposed to have the answers because-- I'm the leader. I mean,

it sounds different. And the latter is actually more exhausting because carrying that perceived, just have to have it together all the time.

That has contributed to it for sure. And we're just raised, educated, socialized to write is worthy. We're supposed to be right,

and we're supposed to have the answer 'cause that's how we've... been rewarded and acknowledged. And there's a little bit of feel good, you know, like we talk about the dopamine hit. When you're right,

it feels good. The problem is we, when we take that, you know, into our adult lives and then certainly into leadership into the business world, then some of them really always has to be wrong if you have to be right.

And those are your employees. Those are the teams you're supposed to be leading. So I think that's contributed a lot. And now we have this opportunity to be like, actually, people don't need us to be perfect.

It makes trust more challenging, actually. If I'm always buttoned up and perfect, then what are the people around me need to be buttoned up and perfect?

They actually want to see that we're human, that people are human. And that we can, as leaders... leaders, model what gracious mistake -making looks like.

Because to hear a leader, a really good leader say, "That was my bad," or, "I should have listened to you on that one. I'm really sorry. We've got to, you know, can you help me? We've got to figure out how to right -side this,

but I wanted you, you know, I wanted you to hear it from me." There's so much credibility in that. And 20 years ago, there wouldn't have been any So I love that for the leader from the space of building more trust,

which makes their role as a leader more effective. And it's more effective for their team members as well. Mostly why I love it is for the human beings,

the human being part of us to be able to live, to be able to breathe. [LAUGHS] let that guard down and know that it's actually can be a more effective way to lead,

to have success. And there's something, really that's what's appealing to me about all of us spreading this message that the messiness is important in your leadership.

- Yeah, one tactic tactic in it, it seems small, but I think it really shifted for me was, you know, since I was, gosh,

since I was basically in middle school and high school, I've been a facilitator or a teacher or a tutor in some way. Like I worked with kindergarten or kindergarteners that were struggling with knowing their colors and their shapes.

And I was a certified tutor in college and I did team training. in court when I was in corporate America. And now here I am building programs and facilitating that. This has always been a part of my,

my world that I didn't realize was going to be a part of my world. But one thing that I started changing several years ago was when I would start a new facilitation of a program,

I would always say, you know, I'm here as your facilitator. and yes, well, this is a topic that I am knowledgeable of. My brain cannot match the collective knowledge of what's in this room.

So I want you all to speak up because I cannot be the expert on everything and nor should I don't want to be the expert on everything. And you very well might know way more than I do.

And I so I want this to be a collective experience of you inputting as much of your area. of expertise as anybody else in this room. And I will help facilitate that,

but I do not consider myself the keeper of all the answers. And just saying that helped me, for one thing, take the pressure off. - Right. - That I need to know all the answers. I even say like,

you know, I know a lot of things about business, but I don't know everything about it. I can maybe find the answer for you. So it's like, I will tell you if I don't know the answer and I will go seek it out. but I know I won't have the answer and I want to establish that expectation right off the bat that I am a human being so that I can't know everything.

- Yeah, so it's almost like you're sharing this as a message that you 100 % firmly believe in, which I know you do. And also in your head, you're like, and just remember, I don't have to-- - Yes,

exactly, it is just as much for me. - It's just as the rest of the group and, you know, one of the things I love about you for sure, is you were walking the walk and talking the talk, and I do think part of helping change these patterns and these ways that we originally were,

how we grew up is to remind ourselves as we're sharing this messaging with others, like, oh yeah. And it does, doesn't it? It takes the pressure off. - Absolutely. - I think the other thing that you're doing by continuing to share it with others,

that is really the frame, the first designed alliance staff for you as a facilitator is it's also reminding others that there is no more, everything is focusing on one person,

this sense of collectiveness wherever we are is critical because we all only have one perspective, it's our own. And so it requires to have the kind of energy and to have the kind of,

of interest and You know for spaces to really thrive it's that everybody has has something to contribute So I love that. I love that you're you know,

you're forward if you're reinforcing that as well Yeah, it took a lot of time for me to See this is why you gotta click we have to share these things because yes Everett were this is we're practicing human beings.

- Yes. - I'm practicing every day. I had something happen recently. I had something on my bucket list. We were talking a little bit about this off mic. I learned a new phrase, off mic.

That I had something on my bucket list. I think it's important to stretch and challenge yourself for sure. I wanna be able to put my money where my heart goes, as well, and the kind of work that I do. And I have, I love singing, so I'm taking my time.

lessons. And so I went to the first session, which is like a discovery, literally like the stuff we would do for, is this the right program, that kind of thing.

And the studio, basically when it's your session time, you knock on the door to the studio. And so there's a little waiting room. So I'm sitting there and I'm really excited, super excited that I'm doing this.

And whoever, was in the studio before me, it was like the clouds parted and an angel descended. It just started singing.

That's what I could hear coming out of the studio. And I just got sweaty palms. It was an immediate physical reaction, like in that my brain said, "What in the world are you doing here?" I mean,

I just, it happened so quickly. And we've got to always be managing it. those things, the self -talk, the practices that you're, you were using as you engage in facilitating. And I remember literally being like,

what am I doing here? And then getting myself back together, I didn't leave. Good, good. But I remember, like, this is why you have to have good practices.

And this is why this conversation is about our mindset and how we're seeing things and how we reframe and that we talked about that earlier, that no one is going to do it like me,

and that's my superpower, and that was the brilliant superpower of whoever was before me, because she sounded how she was supposed to sound. But I've been really thinking about that experience and holding on to that experience,

because it's important. A younger version of me might have been like, forget it. Maybe even gone through the discovery session, but now with painful experience,

that's how we got to where we are. And doing the things like you just talked about, just walking the walk and talking the talk, it was like, it'll be me. It'll sound like I sound however I'm supposed to.

But it's important that we continue to share those sort of practices and show up honestly or authentically to share that it isn't all perfect.

- I mean, just imagine if, so like I'm a big Brandy Carlyle fan. You know this about me. I love Brandy. - Yes, love her, yes. - Love her. I mean, just imagine if it was,

I don't know, like nobody knew who Mariah Carey was or who Whitney Houston was. And Brandy Carlyle was sitting on the other side listening to those women. I mean, I could imagine being Brandy.

and being like, oh, there's an, I can't, I can't hit those there. Like I cannot do any of what these two women can do. And if she would have just walked out. - Yeah. - And we had,

we, the world wouldn't have a Brandy Carlyle, which I would, Catherine would be very sad. - I know, your life would be not as complete. - It wouldn't, but I mean, that's the thing with, with any aspect of life,

but they talk about it a lot and music is just the uniqueness, and is is your brand the uniqueness of your sound and your delivery and how you do it and which is Can be duplicated in any Industry in any area of life is that nobody does it the way you do it.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's the It is a perfect metaphor for that kind. Let Her Speak let everybody have their voice left them have their seat at the table and And let's,

some of the work that we did through Let Her Lead, for me particularly was let's help leaders figure out how to do that for others. When you know what it's like to be seen in her,

and you've had the privilege of that opportunity, and you haven't had to, you know, scrape by to get it, or you've really worked on becoming more authentically,

you know, more authentically. when you've had that opportunity to me, it's like the obligation or the responsibility, whatever word we want to use, is to help figure out how to do that for other women,

other teams, other people. And I think that's the other part that's important is when we feel more confident and steadfast in who we are, what it is required as a leader to help create that opportunity.

for other people, it's more clear. And it's more true. - Yeah, and it becomes, I don't necessarily want to say easier,

but it becomes less of a chore to feel like you constantly have to take in other people's opinions and then act on those opinions if you are very steadfast.

steadfast in knowing, this is who I am, this is how I show up, this is my style, this is my uniqueness. If I were to adjust any of these, it would not be me.

And so when you hear folks giving you their opinions or advice or insights, regardless of whether it was well -intentioned or not, it becomes much easier to say,

"No, that's not me." I appreciate, but that's not me. And I'm not going to do that where I think the exhaustion can oftentimes come in the form of feeling like you need to take in everybody's opinion and make adjustments based off of everyone's opinion.

And if you don't have that steadfast understanding of yourself, that can become um, that what leads to a lot of, a lot of issues. Yeah, yeah.

And I think one of the other leadership requirements, practices, essence really for success is my ability to make decisions.

And this is also one that comes up that can be really hard. So again, the more clear I am about who I am, the more steadfast I am with I'm gonna do the best I can with the information that I have,

I'm gonna. to take in from the people that are around me to help me make the best decision or evaluate things I can make the best decision possible. It is really hard to do that without what you just described.

I'm super clear in who I am. I understand my values. I understand how my values motivate me or cause me to make decisions the way that I do. I'm okay if everyone's not going to like the decision because that's.

just sort of how it goes. But I find that some of those other leadership requirements for high performance or success or however we define it,

it's a necessity that I feel confident steadfast because we will make mistakes, we have to love our mistakes, we will fail and that is the other really important part of leadership.

leadership is the ability to make decisions and judgment calls. And I noticed that part of a leader's skill. And we talk, we had a lot of those conversations too.

And during our program, it's much, much harder when you don't have a really strong sense of self. - Absolutely. Yes. I think that's the start and end point of all of it is the sense of...

of self. And there's some of what you were saying also remind me of this trick that I did for myself. I think I did it during the pandemic because it was,

a lot of folks don't know this, but when I transitioned from deciding that let her speak was more than a hobby and it needed to be taken more seriously and she needed to grow and become more than what I was given.

giving her credit for. I left my full -time role, and this was February of 2020, so we all know what happened in March. A lot of things exploded,

and one thing that I remember, I wrote a message to myself, and it still hangs up on our refrigerator, so I see it every day, and it says, "Thank you for being human," and it was a grace that I was extending.

to everybody, you know, during that timeframe, like our humanity really showed itself of just we're imperfect, things broke down, we don't know how to deal with certain issues,

and we had to really reframe a lot of our lives and understand a deeper sense of self, because we actually had the quiet time to reintroduce ourselves to ourselves. But I wrote it also as a reminder to myself that every time I mess up,

I thank myself for being a human being and for not being a robot. Um, and so that became a practice that I still do to this day of like when I, when I screw up and I'm like, good job,

Catherine, you're a human being still. I love this. Yeah. I could, I will share your practice cause it's just checking in. Turns out, I'm still human. Yep. Yep.

I'm not aside. cyborg yet. - Still human. - Cold hearted. - Cold dead hearted on you. - Yep, yep, still human being. - Oh, so important. Yeah,

I really love that. That's a great share. - Oh, thank you so much for just everything that you've done throughout the program, but also what you can, there's a lot of things that Gina did that weren't all seen by the audience.

everybody, but meeting with a lot of the women one -on -one, working with them one -on -one. And I'm so excited for the rest of the season where everybody's gonna be able to listen in on their conversations of our graduates and their mentors and coaches.

- I am excited too. Thank you. This is awesome. - Can't wait. - Can't wait. - Thanks. (gentle music)

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She Speaks | A Let Her Speak Podcast

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